This episode Brain Koz from True North Trout joins us to talk about tradition and what's new at the 2023 Midwest Fly Fishing Expo presented by the Michigan Fly Fishing Club.
Get to know Brian, his career in fly fishing and why he keeps returning to the expo year after year.
Come watch and meet with fly fishing industry greats, equipment companies, and more in March.
Join us on March 11 + 12 for the Midwest Fly Fishing Expo
Macomb Community College Sports & Expo Center
14500 East 12 Mile Road, Warren, MI 48088
Saturday, March 11, 2023: 9am - 6pm
Sunday, March 12, 2023: 10am - 4pm
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Brian Ka, I'm Northern Michigan. I have been fly fishing for ooh, close to 40 years. We moved up. 20 years ago made Petoskey home. I'm from Grand Rapids originally. I got lucky growing up that my stepfather was a bass guy and I got to fish father-son tournaments with him a lot. But my father and stepmother, my stepmom's from Grayling, so I used to get a lot of trips to grayling fishing for trout. And I have a lot of cousins that are guides in the area so that they became my. I looked up to all those guys in their long boats and what a lifestyle they had. Being on the river in the summertime. They were always tanned. They knew where all the fish were catching brook trout and browns were awesome. I think as soon as I learned how to tie a fly, I started tying flies at age nine so I could go catch trout as much as I possibly could. We would ride our bike out. This is back way before we had cell phones. We would pack up a backpack, hop on a bike, grab our rods and go hit Sand Creek out by Grand Valley State and try to catch steelhead every spring. It was just, that's what we did as kids before, before we were addicted to our social media devices. Nice. Went to Grand Valley, grew up in Grand Rapids, ended up in Petoskey, Boyne City area How did you start out fly fishing or was that something that evolved? It definitely evolved and so as a career choice, it fell into my lap. I'm a restaurant guy. I've always been in the restaurant industry. I worked at the Penn Club through college at Grand Valley State and at CC G R C back then. Met a lot of people in town and I, fished quite a bit done, but I and this is where a lot of people get caught off guard or on the side, they say that I, bring this out too fast. I just got back from a meeting and meeting with my spee. I've been in AA for 20 years, sober for 21. I, quit drinking because I was living on the streets in Grand Rapids and I replaced. Addiction to alcohol with fly fishing. So litter, quite literally, when I say that fly fishing saved my life, it's not a joke. I I made fly fishing, become my new addiction, and I, jumped into the river with both feet and I, found that when I got up north, I s I still bartended and waited tables. But I had all these beautiful rivers around me, so I wanted to share that with a lot of people that we have up here. I was a president for a Trout Unlimited group for a number of years, and I was volunteering doing the salmon in the classroom program with our local elementary school and the dnr, Heather Heninger. I volunteer with a lot doing Creole surveys and stuff like that. She's you're, doing more than just a couple trips a year. Cause I would donate trips to other groups like Women's Resource Center or. And she said, you should probably get your guide's license and become legit. So I did. And that was over a decade ago when I did that about the same time a gentleman outta Traverse City had the website called True North Trout, and he emailed me and asked me if I would be interested in taking it over. And I, said I, don't really have an interest in, blogging or writing or doing anything of that nature of which I've gotta get back to doing every winner I say I should write. It gets hard. I write well when I'm motivated or impassioned by something. When something comes along like the Dimo or the chumming issue, it's easy to get write down on paper and put something on. But Jordan Lindbergh had true North Trout. I told him I didn't wanna do it. I talked to my wife about it. She said It would be very good for you to do it. It would be good practice for you to learn how to write and, put your thoughts on. So I did say yes, I did take it over. I grew it. It just also happened that at that time Facebook started to become a thing and then Instagram came along and a lot of other guides they frowned down upon you've been through there, you've gotta put your time in at the shop, you gotta put your effort. I'm like, I did all that. And I just happened to be the guy who in Northern Michigan. Had all the right pieces in the right place at the right time, and it, grew very fast. I also had my connections to downstate, so I would also donate trips to different, to chapters and, grow my clientele that way. I think every day we go on the river, we're always learning. There's never a day that I've got it all figured out. The day I do have it all figured out, put me in the ground because then it's no longer fun nor a challenge. And. Man I, look forward to every day that the river's different. The, weather's different, the fish are different, the hatches are different. And obviously I took bugs at Grand Valley State University. I, took a, refresher course at NC M C because I also volunteer for tip of the at watershed council doing stream surveys. I just love bugs. I love the fact. You can turn over a rock or a log and find 25 different ma macroorganisms living underneath a, rock or a log all year long. It's just an amazing world that we live in, a nutshell. Absolutely. I love your, story, Brian. And I think there's a couple nonprofits now, or at least maybe one that does work with people that are in AA and helping them use fly fishing as a means of therapy and their their journey to rehabilitate. And have you ever volunteered with a group like that before or given trips away to people like that to help teach them? We tried. I lived right across the street from Harbor Hall, which is a, rehab community in, Petoskey, and we thought about doing a fly time night with. Guys that were in the program, because it, gives you, when you sit down and you're tying flies, your mind isn't thinking about your ad, your addiction your, mind is thinking about the art and the craft that you're doing at hand. I quit smoking a number of years ago too, and whenever I wanted to have a cigarette, I would go tie a fly. So my mind would it gave me that five minute reprieve of not craving something, just like drinking a glass of water. There are programs out there, I'm more involved. The Mayfly project in northern Michigan, and you guys are gonna see at the Midwest Expo, there's gonna be a whole bunch of reeling and healing casting for recovery project, healing waters. There's so many nonprofits out there. I wish I could be involved with them all and donate to the veterans that have done so much for our country. And it's, just an amazing thing to be able to share our passion for the rivers with other. Yeah. Speaking of Expo, we're excited to see you at the expo. I can't wait. It's, great that you guys are both gonna be there and I think it's a, great addition to have you doing some live broadcasts. Yeah. I think that it's gonna change things up and make it a little bit different, but that this is the dawn of the changing of the fly fishing industry. Like you were just talking about previously having a lot of cotton arm. Yeah. Yeah. Making a lot of necessary changes this year. Me and Ash are, and this is step one of a million. So I think that it will be good for our listeners and yeah. What better way to say what's going on and talk to those important people than putting it on a podcast? Absolutely, totally agree. And it gets people who aren't there a feeling of being there and, having some kind of connection to it. Are you familiar with Jason Tuck? Is he used to write a blog. He used, he lived in Lanson, his blog was called Fontans Rising. Okay. And if you look up his blog, you're, he's a really great writer great angler. Him and I have phished number of times. I remember him writing about going to one of his first shows and he wrote about how, cool it was to make connections with a whole bunch of. It's,GMT20230124-185633_Recording_640x360-1:
it's a moment in time where, for instance I've read a lot of what Jerry Regans put out there and to like actually see someone like Joe Jackson's flies in hand. Like it last year was like this moment of enlightenment where it's oh, you can actually get in into a space with these people. And have an informal conversation. Yes. And somebody like Jerry Regan, I'm relocating to the basement because my wife's coming home with groceries and I don't want her to be too loud. Away. Yeah. Somebody like, like Jerry. So many years of experience that somebody needs to sit down with that guy and get all of his years of wisdom on paper. Whenever I run into him, it's always a how you doing Jerry? He is if I was any better, I'd be six feet under. He is got all the, it's like the grandpa that we all have. And I think our generation is missing that. The storyteller part of the angling community. I was talking with Joe Humphreys a few years. and he said that most good presenters are all good storytellers, and there's very few in this next generation that consider on a campfire and tell a story and have everybody engaged. It's, knowing how to read the audience. It's having a good command of the English language. It's, just knowing how to bait people. and there's a few that still do it. I think George Daniel, who's gonna be at the show is one of 'em, Landon Mayor, another excellent example. There's a lot of younger guys that are coming up that are gonna have to be paying attention to these people that, that came before us. The lefty craze, the flip pallets. They, you can sit down and listen to flip palate forever because the guy is. enthralling with his, wisdom and knowledge, and you just want, you're hanging by his every next word. You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. Those guys have, paved the way for us. In a lot of ways they've come up with a lot of different things and reinvented the wheel in terms of fly fishing like tons of times. Yes, I don't I, don't think nowadays the social media that we have really tells their story too well. It always, the social media and stuff that we have now focuses a lot on the, now the people that are out there that are young and. But they're still writing those stories. They still, they have, they're just a couple chapters in as opposed to these older grades that have a whole book or two to fill full of knowledge. And I'm, excited to when we finally can get people, and this is like something we haven't been able to do for a few years, is give people multi-generational together. In a space like for instance, Midwest Fly Fishing Expo, we have people that are 90 plus and then maybe someone that's 16, 17, 18. And there's such a big difference in, in communication there. Like we think of someone younger, it's seven seconds on Instagram. If you can't grab, if I can't grab your attention in seven seconds, then I've, failed my. you lost them. Yes. Yeah. And, then we have someone like Jerry and it's I am so excited to maybe even get moments where we can get some multi-generational conversations going because the gap is so much different, but the knowledge is there. Some of our younger, some of our younger anglers, and what I'm seeing, like I know a lot of older anglers will. Oh, a squirmy worm's. A trash can fly. I hate to say that, but that trash can fly works. And there's a reason that we're taking new materials and trying, different things. Just like our, older generation that took all sorts of different hair. We have synthetics now. Why not play with those? Exactly. Totally. I'm not a, I'm not a purist. I'll use a, mob fly if I have make At the show this weekend, I was tying a whole bunch of Pat's, rubber legs, turds, whatever you want to call it, because they catch fish. Yeah. It's just a, it's a modified mop, fly It's matching something in, the the fish's food whether people like to admit it or not. They can call it a dirty mop all day one, but at the end of the day, it's a fish is gonna eat it. Someone may or may not set the hook on it. Yes. And I, think I saw in one of your questions, Ash, something about center pinning. And I think that when the time is right steel heading with a center pin is one of the most effective deadly ways to catch a lot of fish. At the end of the day, the client doesn't really hold on to, what did I catch that fish on? They just have a memory that they had a great day catching a lot of fish. And then that makes them book another trip with. I think center pinning between the fly world and the conventional world is the, pinot noir between the white and the reds. So it's, an easier transition whether you're conventional or fly to go from left to right or right to left. It helps people. It's not easy to do. There's a lot of finesse involved. There's a lot of learning how to control that reel without getting all your lines smacked up backwards in your face in a big old bird's nest. But It's super effective and I've gone down the river with a lot of people wild Bill and I'll throw a streamer all day long, and then he drops a spawn bag in the same spot where I just was, and pulls out a seal head just because the offering is right in front of the fish. And the fly when I make my F strip is pulled away from where the fish is supposed to be at. So it's, effectiveness better to have the wrong fly at the right depth than the right fly at the wrong depth. Did I say that backwards? it's like a tongue twist. Yes. The right fly at the wrong depth is worse than having the wrong fly at the right depth. Yeah. Yeah, no, you said that. Yeah, you said that perfectly. And yeah, while I've never gotten too deep into center pinning I've done it a couple times before. I see, I do see how effective it is. And I think that's why I avoid it at times because. I feel like I always like to give myself a challenge getting it on the fly rod as opposed to a lot of you guys up there, your water systems are very different from Michigan than Ohio and Pennsylvania. The center Piners will be there catching fish and then eventually I can make one happen. But I know that's not always the case in Michigan especially with some of the deeper holes that you guys hold on your side. The wood, the runs. Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever been on the water before where you were fishing with center piners and you were using a fly rod and the opposite happened where you were catching them and they weren't? It does, but it's only one out of 10. It's the other way around. They're, smacking 'em way more than I am, but I will say that I much rather get any steelhead on the swing when you're dropping a fly and they, tug on the very end of that. There's, no other jolt in your life. A 15 pound steelhead on the end of a, spay rod. Yeah. And there's no other kind of heartbreak than when you get 'em on the swing and just for a split second, and they spit the hook they, or you, pulled the old trout set and there every guy I go with, they're like, dude, you're not supposed to set the hook. Just let 'em do it. but you can't, it's so hard to resist, so hard to untrain. It's like mouthing, but on big water during the day. It's just, that's why. Yeah. Like I said earlier, there's always all these levels of learning. There's never a day that you've got it all figured out. Wow. Great. Else different, speaking of flies and learning, I know that during the expo there's all sorts of d. Classes going on different knowledge that someone could attain. What out of your perspective, what are some of the classes that, if you're gonna attend the expo, where, what do you need to be at? Detroit's gonna be one of the best shows for the Midwest in general because we offered we've got the Great Lakes. Any given day of the summer, winter, fall, spring. I can chase a number of different species of fish, especially the month of June we can go St. Mary's River and go catch Steelhead or Atlantics. We can also go brown trop fishing for Drake with Drakes, or we can go hit smallmouth in some of the inland bays. Musky fishing, carp fishing. We've got so much, there's a lot of different guides from different shops and different outfitters are gonna be offering different classes on destination travel. The Great Lakes are often referred to as the flyover states. When people go from New York to Montana or Colorado, they fly over the Great Lakes and they don't fish 'em. But we've got. I love fishing some of my waters up by Traverse City, the freshwater Bahamas. I'll do that on my standup paddle board for smallmouth Pike carp. Absolute challenge, catching a carp on a fly. And when they take off, call 'em a mud bone. Call 'em whatever you will. A 30 pound Great Lakes carp will put you into your backing faster than any other fish. In fresh water. I swear there's nothing else quite like it. Yeah, I like to call them up, paddle for it. That'll tell you it's, fun because you can just get to different spots and see a lot of fish and pick out the ones that you wanna chase after. The other good thing about the expo though, you are, you would be, If you don't know who Tightline Productions, Tim Flagler is, you've got to stop and check him tying. He's one of the most, he's got the softest voice, he's got the best presentation. All of his videos are entertaining. They're also, I think, from beginner to expert fly tying level. You can find a fly in his arsenal of YouTube. And his story's pretty unique too. I believe he got started back when his wife was selling candles and he was doing photography for his. In a, catalog shoot and then he started thinking, Hey, I can do this for fly tieing. And that began the, series. And obviously he is super famous with Orvis and Mr. Rosenbauer helped him get along with that. But Tim's a great guy. Everybody should go check out a couple of his presentations. He's got a lot of really small, neat tricks to make your tying more enjoyable and relaxing. I'm not a production tire when I sit down and tie, I. Because they're flies that I need and because they're flies that I don't want to buy. And if it's streamer fishing, I see a new material and I'm like, oh, let's try this. Oh, let's try this. So I get four or five done, and then I'm, switching out to a, different variation of the circus peanut or the whatever we're tying at the time. The, nappy sculpin or the freeze ride sculpin, whatever. Big, bait fish are fun to tie. Yeah, you're barking up a ashe's tree. Right there. She she loves fish and streamers. I always tell her there's a time and place for it. Fish streamer fishing, and ash seems to think it's all the time. There is 12 months of the year is streamer season. Yeah. Somebody says they don't streamer fish and they only dry fly fish. That means they're only fishing two months out of the year. If you're streamer fishing, There's always a streamer Hatch. That's right. Yeah. That's Ash's motto for sure. In, Michigan, especially with all of our woodwork I've, just, that's what I've ended up developing is very strong skillset because to get in, a lot of times it's that cast initial men and you start stripping and there's somebody sitting underneath a log. And, I've gotten so used to doing that. Like when I went to visit Krista, she was like, Hey, let's use these nips. I'm like what are those things? I'm like, there's. So we have a lot of guys that make a lot of fun of the Nimmin guys, but I will say that Ming Euro nimmin tight lining, super effective, super, super deadly. But we are very limited in the number of miles of river in Michigan that you can effectively nim fish. But the spots that you can on certain rivers that I fish. I will do that and bring along a nine or 10 foot, three weight, four weight, and you'll pull fish out and they'll, still be decent. 14 to 18 inch fish, which are surprising in that water. But they're in there and they're feeding, and a lot of times you go right over, past 'em. George Daniel will be at the show as one of those excellent dynamic nim for guys. He sent one of his clients who booked a couple trips with him. To learn how to nim and then he came up to go to Michigan to learn how to streamer fish. So he spent some time with me a few years ago, and I'll never forget watching him work a, run that I, I float by numerous times, and now I always stop and we always pull two or three fish out with a Pat's rubber legs with a blow torch or a prota gun or a the Duracell jig, whatever. A couple of crazy favorite flies. The rainbow warrior, copper John, whatever. Name it they're, eating them. They're just the right size that matches everything else that's in the river. Yeah. Especially see that a lot on the Boardman. Like you can go out on the Boardman and drive, fly your heart out, nothing elite and switch over to an infinite works. The Boardman is like a, reborn new western river in northern Michigan. And it's not a secret, but there's a lot of people that would like to keep it that way. It's, our it's, a hidden gem. It's obviously next to Traverse City, so there's a lot of people that go hit it because it's in their backyard. But there's a lot of rivers up here that do have a lot of space like that. You just have to know where they're at. Pull out your OnX or Google Maps and, try to find them. But we're blessed with so many millions of miles, not millions, but thousands of miles of fishable water that you can escape. A lot of people. So talking about time flies, different types of flies. This makes me think about shopping and I, liken it to the song of like, when you go to Willy Wonka and, there's all the candy. It's what the showroom floor is. From my experience last year we had Schultz's, we had the giant Hackle Lollapalooza thing at the other end. there's all this stuff going on. So what, in your perspective as someone who ties I, I sit around and paint more than anything. So I don't tie a lot of my own flies. What's in it for, what's in it for the tire? You're gonna be able to see a lot of the newest, latest materials, and you're gonna be able to talk to a lot of different fly shops and what they've been tying because every region in the state has a different regionality as far as what they're tying. You talk to the, Grayling guys, whether it's Gates, old ble, Ron's fly shop. They're, gonna be heavier into the, Drakes and the hex bugs where you talk to somebody at Schultz and they're not tying too many Drakes or Hex because they're, more in the streamer game. They're more in the smallmouth pike destination travel. Maybe they're doing some carp fishing or they're heading over to the Menominee and doing some small mouth fishing. So they, everybody's got their own niche, and I think that perspective from each shop is a good thing to talk to. And you also mentioned the, wall of hackles. I believe that would've been Kio. Kio is a Michigan hackle company and you can find some really, good saddles and capes for a really good price because a lot of these guys show up. A lot of shops bring their entire store with them and they don't want to pack it all back up on Sunday to bring it back home. You're gonna find closeouts, you're gonna find deals on last year's materials that a lot of people wanna move out. I also think. It's a great opportunity just to talk to, like you said, a lot of different guides, a lot of different tires. Watching somebody sit down and tie and bang out a whole bunch of the same patterns. You'll see, you will see how they make it more effective, more simple and more fun at the same time. Yeah I, remember I, I got pulled over to the tying area, so that whole back wall near the bleachers I, don't know how many hours I spent over there. Cause I'd go back to my, corner of the earth and someone, oh no, come back over here. And within the 10, 15 minutes of sitting there and like exchanging stories with 'em, there's a whole pile of flies and they're like, which one you want, what color you want it? Wait aren't you selling these things? They're like, ah, here, take that And it's cool because I've got some flies from some people that are no longer around from 10 years ago. I've got a couple flies and they're, I've got 'em on a, little board that they're just never gonna be touched again because that's, their craft and that's their art. We got people Like Mike Schmidt and some of those guys that are from Michigan, Ohio, and now he's down in Florida and that's all he does is bang out streamers for shops all across the country. There's certainly various, I would say there's various types of artwork to be had because we've got. Paintings. We've got wearable artwork, which is all the sorts of cool clothing and stuff that you'll see from some of the vendors. And then we also have artwork that's like Joe Jackson. Yes. And, his flies, which I, that man does magic with deer hair. Yeah, he does. Yep. And it used to be Chris Helms years ago with his mouse flies. And it's just, it seems to get passed on to the next generation, the next generat. So speaking of generation, from your perspective this year the tradition last year was my first year going to this thing. I'm like, wow there's, a lot of tradition around this, expo. So what's tradition in the mo what's new there is, and I think I'm lucky that I'm in the middle of it because I, see. My parents' generation, my grandfather's generation, that might not be around as much. And then you guys are the next ones coming around. I think it's, very cool to watch some of these younger anglers, younger tires, younger guides coming up with combinations on patterns that we've been using for a number of years, and they're putting new twists on 'em. I'll still pull out an old black ghost every once in a while or an old Coachman and, they catch fish. But it's also cool to see somebody who sees a new material come along and they're like, Hey, let's try to apply this to this principle. And they do it and it works. And there's this, the dubbing brush phenomenon with all of our streamers that we tie that knocks out some pretty bulky patterns that don't have a lot of weight that I can pick up with a six or a seven weight and cast 'em a long distance and, get a good profile on a bait fish that a lot of other fish tend to like. I'm, liking to see all the different colors that we have coming up and all the different blends and crystal flashes and stuff that we have. It's, pretty exciting. yeah. Over the younger generation coming into the fly fishing industry, I'm seeing a lot of these younger tires. And I'm there's always people that are getting into being a guide and working at a shop and things like that, but I feel like they're really enjoying picking up the, fly fishing or the fly tie part of things because they can be unique and creative with their craft. And some of these kids have just made flies that we haven't thought to do before. Not only just the, artificial materials that we have now, but the different bead heads with the tungston different sizes, different colors, and then they put it out and those things are working way too damn sometimes. I really think that's been a big impact is the fly tying part simply because people get to be creative and, when they do develop a fly that works really well, they have their name behind it they wanna be recognized for that and that's how they get that right away. You. Absolutely. I think the, articulations, the shanks, the blank chocolates, the game changers, the now he's doing the, mini changers. It's good to have the, basics, the principles of tying, but at the same time, all rules apply. And on the other side, no rules apply. You know that you don't have to, you can follow whatever you want and, The bottom line is the fish is the one who's gonna determine whether your fly is effective or not. And when you get it in the water, whether it swims nice or doesn't swim nice, or if it's a pain in the butt to pick up and you can't do it with an eight weight or a nine weight and your arm's gonna be sore, then you might want to go back to the drawing board and try to scale down. Charlie Craven and some of those guys that tie some flies that are. Absolutely the, swim coach and the baby swim coach. Super small profile. You can almost throw that thing on a five weight and it, has a great presence in the water and looks a lot like, look at some of the guide flies that I fish with. Drew Roma for Steelhead last year, and Matt Zweig. The guys with Fester Guide Service, they're flies aren't very elaborate or multi-layered. Just a little bit of Malibu and a little bit of flash. That's it. Boom. And you're done. And they're, their guide flies. They're effective. They can bang out 30 of 'em in a minute, or whatever, 30 seconds. And they catch fish all day long. Sometimes we overthink the whole process. Let's, bring it back down, boys. It's just fishing, right? It's this reminds me of a so when I was in art, when I was in college and I was taking art classes, my professor, he would. Like when someone would get a little too, I like too in the weeds of what they were doing. He'd look at, he'd look at you and he'd be like, what are you doing? And you're like I'm doing this or this. And he'd look at you and go, don't make rules, make art. It's that same sort of, almost like with fly fishing, don't exactly. Don't make yourself the rules. Like same principal to start with. Yes, totally. So from what I understand we're, going around, we're getting a bunch of different people together. Kind of what we're gonna be doing at the expo is completely new so people aren't aware. Like even our vendors, we're starting to share information, Hey, we're gonna be doing this live. And I know just talking with you, before we started, Brian, we were talking about what, could we. Possibly be doing that's different or how can we entice people to come over? So you were mentioning a few different items with T F O. We're also talking some trips. There's lots of giveaways that happen at this event. There are, and we don't want to take away from the actual event itself, we just want to add to it at the same time. But to get, I think to motivate the excitement to get people to come out. That's what the whole draw is. And it's, a, it's like a big family. It's, our dysfunctional family that we all get together and we can't wait to, catch up and, see each other. It, was very much missed during the covid years. And we also get to, for you guys, a lot of people get to see new products that, where else can you walk into a building and, test cast? Five or six different fly rods from different manufacturers and see which one you like or see what, new fly lines from scientific anglers or Rio or from Orbis what's out there. What's. What's gonna work for your fishing situation? Or maybe you're gonna go on a destination travel this year. Maybe you're going to The Bahamas, maybe you're going to Canada, maybe you're going to Alaska. You get to talk to a lot of different people that have done all these things and you can get firsthand experience and knowledge that sure you could get if you emailed somebody or gave somebody a call. But it's a lot better when you're doing it in. Definitely, yeah. The, fly shops definitely aren't gonna let you test out the, all those rods and all those fly lines so the expo's like a perfect place to go and do that and get the firsthand representation from those companies. Yes. And actually some, in some cases learn how to cast better or hear, you get to hear stories from some people that have been in these places and they, got better doing things because they learned how to do it better by attending these events. Definitely. I think I'm looking at our sheet here. I think we've covered. Everything. Is there anything from like the, Fly Fishing Show expo position Brian, is there anything that you think we need to add to, to entice people to come in or definitely visit the website Michigan Fly Fishing Club and. See what they have for new vendors that are gonna be there. I know that Catch Flow will be there. They've got the fishing based themed shoes. Dave Humphreys is usually there and he's doing fly boxes that he can engrave on, the box your name. There's a lot of different tires there that we'll be selling. A whole bunch of flies. Bo from little Forks Outfitters will be there. Schulty will be there. Gates old I don't know about Isabel River Outfitters. We have some younger names showing up too. I know the gentleman from Hex Fly. So the net, the nets They're super, kind, really nice gentlemen. I've, went fishing with them a few times and very cool. Nuts too. Yep. Yeah. I'm sure that stealth craft and those guys would be there with some boats if anybody's in the bar market to shop for a new boat or a inflatable. It's, just a great place and a great resource to ask a lot of questions and see a lot of different people that have the, resources and the answers to a lot of things you're looking for. I have a couple people that I know that have a net company called Catch Cam Nets. I dunno, have you heard about them? Yes. I think they might. I think that they're gonna be there. Yeah. Totally reinvented the wheel with the fishing nets for sure. And I know those guys super nice guys super knowledgeable and they're operating out of West Virginia, so they're coming all the way up there. Nice to be at the show and be part of it. Yeah. So I love seeing people come from all over just to be at this one fly show because then you know how important it is to get people from all over. Absolutely. And there will also be a lot of the nonprofits there in Michigan, trial Unlimited, a couple of the TU local chapters. The ladies from Reeling and Healing will be there. So there's, a lot of good groups to get connected. If you're looking to volunteer or if you're looking to give back, I'm pretty sure the Mayfly project will have a table there as well. So it's good for all the resources that we have in the state of Michigan and surrounding Michigan, Ohio, Illinois, Indiana. Yeah I'm, excited. It's for me it, and like even Yukos, it's almost like you said, it's like the family ring. And everyone that I met last year that became friends that I've turned into mentors, it's like the one time of the year that we're not all on the water somewhere chasing each other down for a phone call. Exactly. Totally. And it used to be a week earlier, about five years ago, so there were more shops that were there, but now that it. Little bit later in, into March, we're pushing steelhead season, so you don't see as many of the, PM guides there. I know that B T used to be there and a few other shops used to be there. But there'll be plenty of outfitters and guides there to book trips for the rest of the year and other destinations. I've got PM covered now, yes, you do. That's very true. Good. Yeah. So we, at least have 1:00 PM person. Yes. I wonder if 1884 will be there. I think Dan White might show, I don't know. I actually, I have a floor plan because I got first pick, so I when, Craig and I were going over everything, he's I'm like, I wanna have a tent. He's are you insane? I'm like, no, here's the deal. Yeah We're, changing the whole the, whole game. We're gonna have the cool kids corner over there, so we're gonna have the tent and it's gonna be a lot of fun. And I, are on the fence, so we'll see. I that's hopefully something like this will help people push 'em over the edge. Yeah. We've got a few rapid fire questions for you and then we'll, set you free. If you had a theme song like Wrestler Style, you're gonna show up to the water. What's the cause like theme? Oh, that's tough, but my, my music. Preference would be the eighties alternative Depeche mode, new order erasure, that kind of stuff. But lately on my, walks and my exercise routine, I've been listening a lot to cascade and dead mouth. So probably a, dead mile. The Brazil extended mix is pretty cool enough to throw that in there. Nice. It gets you moving, it gets you doing stuff. Yeah. You got some hype hype, beat going. Yes. The blood pumping. So if you if you could only fish one, one type of fly moving forward, you could only pick one. It's gonna have to be a streamer. Yes. Yes, it will. It will have to be of the, Kelly Gallup family flies. Yes. Spoken like a true Michigander, just a northern Michigan thing. Yep. I will take Ash down to where I live and tell her, okay, so really, like you're gonna have a hard time with anything else unless you use a couple of these mins and she's. I don't give a damn and she'll just whip out the streamer and she'll, be whipping that around. And I, feel her pain and I know why we go home frustrated sometimes, but we also know why we catch big fish too. Yeah. It's a game. It happens. I'll give her, I'll give her that. She does catch some nice fish on the streamers. What are your goals for spring season? Ah. We are I'm, ready. We're ready to go. I, we, because this winter was pretty mild, we got to get out a lot more in December than we normally do because once you're this far north, the rivers freeze up and the access to getting in or getting out becomes limited. But we got out a few times. I've been, time flies, I've got a few bins full, and they're smaller flies than streamer flies. I, my goal this year in all of 2023 is to fish new water more for myself and not book up as much so I can spend more time with some friends. Cool. Cool. And so as a reminder for everyone, Brian joined us because all three of us will be at the Midwest Fly Fishing Expo on March 11th and 12th. That's at the McComb is it com, McComb Community. Yes. Outside of Detroit area we're hoping that you can attend Brian in the short what's in it for them. You're gonna be able to come down and see all of us hang out at a tent talking about fishing and the fun things that we do with a fly rod. We'll be able to come down and test cast a couple fly rods. I'm with the T f O booth, so I will be down there with a whole bunch of guys. And we'll be talking about the latest, newest, best stuff in the market, and you'll be able to visit a lot of other manufacturers like Scientific Anglers Reddington, Sage, Rio, all the other guys that are out there, and check in on new products that different dealers have. Awesome. So once again, that's Midwest Fly Fishing Expo. That'll be March 11th and. McComb Community College. Doors open at, what is it, 10 or 11? I think it's nine o'clock on Saturday and 10 o'clock on Sunday. Okay. So yes, two days, anywhere early. Get there early. There's a line. So if, you do plan on attending, purchase your ticket in Advanced on the mid the Michigan Fly Fishing Club or Midwest Fly Fishing Expo website. purchasing an advance gets you out of that line. And also, great time. So thanks Brian for joining us. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Look forward to seeing you guys down there. Yeah. Looking Yeah. Looking